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  • Being ultimately responsible for your health and being in control of it are two very different things.
    Last edited by Disciple of Fate; 07-17-2021, 08:11 AM.

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    • Originally posted by Queen_annes_revenge View Post
      Allowing people and businesses to make their own judgements on risk and act accordingly.
      Fuck no. They don't have the capacities, and their actions impact everyone else in a way that make collective decision making a necessity.

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      • I’m going to fire my gun randomly in a crowd. It’s ultimately your own responsibility to avoid being hit by stray bullets.

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        • Originally posted by OgorOrukOomanDuardin View Post
          Fuck no. They don't have the capacities, and their actions impact everyone else in a way that make collective decision making a necessity.
          Ah yes, the collective. We don't like your individual decisions, so we're going to force our will on you. Do you not see any problems with that?

          Let's say hypothetically that masks had been banned by the government. You would be making the exact same arguments about freedom of choice that I am.

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          • Originally posted by Queen_annes_revenge View Post

            It doesn't enter my head, because as I've said before, the only person ultimately responsible for my health is myself, and same for everyone else.
            So once again, your point of view boils down to "I'm a selfish asshole who doesn't care about other people, even in a situation where an individual's actions can clearly have an impact on others."

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            • Originally posted by Queen_annes_revenge View Post

              Ah yes, the collective. We don't like your individual decisions, so we're going to force our will on you. Do you not see any problems with that?

              Let's say hypothetically that masks had been banned by the government. You would be making the exact same arguments about freedom of choice that I am.
              Ah, the Ben Shapiro technique.

              This is bad faith as your hypothetical is reaching for what is on its face a "hypocritical" answer without actually taking into account that the reasoning for that answer is consistent. Masks reduce spread, therefore people should wear masks to reduce the spread of infection. People as a group require guidance and regulations to function in a society where actions for an individual benefit can result in a net loss for everyone, even those who initially got those benefits (see Tragedy of the Commons). Therefore the government should provide guidance and regulations so that people clearly understand what will assist with the goal of limiting infection. If the net goal is to limit the spread of infection, then masks should be enforced.
              Last edited by Too Hot To Trot; 07-17-2021, 09:41 AM.

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              • Queen_annes_revenge
                Queen_annes_revenge commented
                Editing a comment
                'masks reduce spread' according to the scientists we've chosen in order to enforce the narrative that masks stop the spread.

              • Herzlos2
                Herzlos2 commented
                Editing a comment
                According to pretty much all scientists, inclusing the ones whose advice we're ignoring.

            • Originally posted by Queen_annes_revenge View Post
              We don't like your individual decisions, so we're going to force our will on you. Do you not see any problems with that?
              Absolutely not. I'm sure you will be able to explain, but right now I just see zero problem.
              I mean, you gave an incredibly generic description of the actual case, which I am sure could apply just as well to situation where even you would agree with "forcing the will" of someone.

              Originally posted by Queen_annes_revenge View Post
              Let's say hypothetically that masks had been banned by the government. You would be making the exact same arguments about freedom of choice that I am.
              Absolutely not. I would be making a completely different argument about how they should force the mask. Not that it should be up to everyone.
              You are acting like I didn't give a rational for when a decision needs to be a collective one rather than an individual one.

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              • Originally posted by Queen_annes_revenge View Post

                Ah yes, the collective. We don't like your individual decisions, so we're going to force our will on you. Do you not see any problems with that?
                Are you really sure you want to be arguing against the existence of any law someone disagrees with? Because that's where your argument ultimately ends up; why should I have to follow any law whatsoever if I don't want to?

                Collective action problems have been extensively studied since the Sixties, to the point where Elinor Ostrom got the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics in 2012 for her life's work in the field. While Ostrom proved that non-State actors could band together to solve social dilemmas without the State, State intervention in social dilemmas remains one of the strongest solutions, to the point where there is a strong argument to be made that the State's very reason for existing in the first place is to solve collective action problems.
                Last edited by AlmightyWalrus; 07-17-2021, 03:01 PM.

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                • Skyth
                  Skyth commented
                  Editing a comment
                  As an aside, every time I glance at the page and see your avatar, I think it's General Grievous at first for some reason :)

              • Originally posted by Queen_annes_revenge View Post

                It doesn't enter my head, because as I've said before, the only person ultimately responsible for my health is myself, and same for everyone else.
                I assume after reading this, you do all of your own medical work and treatments. Your own diagnosis.

                Also, how about those lies about Florida again?

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                • Originally posted by Dreadwinter View Post

                  I assume after reading this, you do all of your own medical work and treatments. Your own diagnosis.

                  Also, how about those lies about Florida again?
                  Is your mortgage advisor or bank manager responsible for what you buy with your day to day money? Specialists are there to advise you on specific things, not dictate your life to you.

                  And I disengaged with that because you were just ignoring my point that those states numbers weren't wildly different to most of the others, throughout the entire winter period, therefore not having mask mandates and the various other tyrannies in place clearly isn't the cause of that particular effect, but you're just going to try and pummel me with cherry picked figures so what's the point?
                  Last edited by Queen_annes_revenge; 07-17-2021, 02:44 PM.

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                  • Dreadwinter
                    Dreadwinter commented
                    Editing a comment
                    What cherry picked stats?

                    Oh you mean the ones that completely disprove what you said? I would ignore those too.

                • Originally posted by OgorOrukOomanDuardin View Post
                  Absolutely not. I'm sure you will be able to explain, but right now I just see zero problem.
                  I mean, you gave an incredibly generic description of the actual case, which I am sure could apply just as well to situation where even you would agree with "forcing the will" of someone.


                  Absolutely not. I would be making a completely different argument about how they should force the mask. Not that it should be up to everyone.
                  You are acting like I didn't give a rational for when a decision needs to be a collective one rather than an individual one.
                  I know, because you like totalitarianism for some reason, provided it suits your worldview it seems. I'm going to have to pass on that though

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                  • Herzlos2
                    Herzlos2 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I love how "don't infect other people" is totalitarianism, but banning protests isnt.

                • Originally posted by Queen_annes_revenge View Post

                  I know, because you like totalitarianism for some reason, provided it suits your worldview it seems. I'm going to have to pass on that though
                  Aren't you the person who wants the government to impose "decency" laws on pride rallies? How hypocritical of you. Your projection is painfully transparent.
                  Last edited by Wolfblade; 07-17-2021, 03:30 PM.

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                  • feeder
                    feeder commented
                    Editing a comment
                    But it's those transparent projections at the Pride rally that are getting QAR so worked up in the first place! Howe could you?

                • Originally posted by Queen_annes_revenge View Post

                  I know, because you like totalitarianism for some reason, provided it suits your worldview it seems. I'm going to have to pass on that though
                  How do you solve a collective action problem without means of enforcing sanctions on defectors?

                  While we're at it, how do you combine democracy with the notion that forcing anyone to do something they don't want is "totalitarianism"?
                  Further, if people being forced to do things they do not want to do is totalitarianism, should this not logically lead to the conclusion that a world where some people have to work while others can live their life in luxury off of interest is totalitarian? You're making a pretty convincing argument for communism here...
                  Last edited by AlmightyWalrus; 07-17-2021, 03:13 PM.

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                  • Originally posted by Queen_annes_revenge View Post

                    It doesn't enter my head, because as I've said before, the only person ultimately responsible for my health is myself, and same for everyone else.
                    It doesn't enter your head that other people may have some responsibility for your health where a contagious disease is concerned?

                    Do you have any concerns about the judgement of other people in other scenarios that inpact your health? Like a bus or plane driver? Other drivers on the road? Food prep? Manufacturing?

                    Because, frankly, I don't believe you've never wondered how someone passed a driving test.

                    Edit: since it's on the individual to protect themselves; how are you planning to avoid catching covid?
                    Last edited by Herzlos2; 07-17-2021, 07:37 PM.

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                    • Originally posted by Queen_annes_revenge View Post

                      Ah yes, the collective. We don't like your individual decisions, so we're going to force our will on you. Do you not see any problems with that?

                      Let's say hypothetically that masks had been banned by the government. You would be making the exact same arguments about freedom of choice that I am.
                      You're complaining about the concept of law?

                      I mean, if laws are created in a reasonable way using accountability and fair process, what's wrong with them?

                      I can't see how a ban on masks would pass the House of Lords here, and if it did it'd be overturned on the first appeal to the ECHR.

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