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  • China

    Well, the free speech crackdown rolls on.


    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/ho...eech-crackdown

  • #2
    Communist thugs doing thuggish things is as surprising as water being wet.

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    • #3
      China is Communist in the same way that Racheal Dolezal is black

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      • #4
        Originally posted by feeder View Post
        China is Communist in the same way that Racheal Dolezal is black
        Considering the underlying logic still does apply no.
        between the Party bureoucrate caste inherent , to the top down industrialisation , it still Checks out as having all the Hall marks of one. The only significant difference is it's participation in a globalised somewhat free market. It however still gets it's "legitimacy" from the "uplifiting" and increased social Status of the population.
        Baseline it isn't anymore socialist in regards to economy and has developped more torwards a command/ party oligarchy , but socially it has been pretty consistent. Hence why Mao still can't be questioned and why the great leap forward is regarded as acceptable.

        Meanwhile Dr Sun would be turning in his grave when witnessing what the kmt did and the ccp is doing.

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        • #5
          Do the chinese workers own the means of production? I don't think they do. Maybe China is still in the nebulous 'transitional phase' that Marx wrote about. But China today under Winnie the Pooh is not a communist system.

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          • Lord0fHats
            Lord0fHats commented
            Editing a comment
            There's a very clear difference between communism in practice and communism as described by Marx. Looking at a guy who never worked in government and using him as the basis for a 'no true communist' argument is probably not going to go anywhere.

        • #6
          Originally posted by feeder View Post
          Do the chinese workers own the means of production? I don't think they do. Maybe China is still in the nebulous 'transitional phase' that Marx wrote about. But China today under Winnie the Pooh is not a communist system.
          Sure , if you want to believe the " no true communism" talk and ingore the vast ammounts of ideology it still took from it's strain of stalinist Maoist doctrine.

          Heck even the Progress cult is still verifyably there .

          ​​​​​​As a System it still falls in that Line of communism , that little insignificant mainline Branch of leninism. And technically considering the state Rate it is arguable that in many ways they do own the means of production, just some (Party members) own it more.... Equally.

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          • #7
            I concede we are probably inevitably heading towards the No True Communism trope.

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            • #8
              Yeah, I'd have phrased Wookie's comment as authoritarian thugs doing thuggish things.
              Doesn't matter if the underlying philosophy/justification is leftwing or rightwing, that's the problematic part.

              Although I'm given to understand that Chinese culture/philosophy/ethics has for centuries if not millennia tended towards putting the greater good ahead of one's own, as opposed to western philosophy, which is a lot more individualistic.

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              • #9
                Yes, it is often one of the arguments given when China criticises human rights as a Western concept, invented to push Western ideals around the world in a sort of cultural imperialism. China frequently argues that human rights aren't universal, because they overemphasize the individual over the greater good/collective ("Asian values"), which would be the maintenance of the Chinese state.

                Of course, the collective over the individual is what basically every dictatorship pretends to uphold.

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                • #10
                  Originally posted by BranDawri View Post
                  Yeah, I'd have phrased Wookie's comment as authoritarian thugs doing thuggish things.
                  Doesn't matter if the underlying philosophy/justification is leftwing or rightwing, that's the problematic part.

                  Although I'm given to understand that Chinese culture/philosophy/ethics has for centuries if not millennia tended towards putting the greater good ahead of one's own, as opposed to western philosophy, which is a lot more individualistic.
                  I would say this is a northern-Asia thing rather than specifically Chinese.

                  I lived in South Korea for a few years and there is definitely a very strong community collective which is built into the way their society and individual interactions functions. Some of this I found really endearing; remember when it snowed literally everyone out in the streets shovelling, it happens the next day and everyone is out there doing it again. But, there is a negative side; an almost painful adherence to group-think and going along with others (the cars on the road sometimes look like GTA when the randomiser hasn't worked properly), or following a particular pop band and having a certain hair-cut. And the danger is, if you fall outside of that group, then everything turns on you as a collective. A friend of mine lived in Japan and his description of it was pretty similar.

                  The interesting point here is that both S Korea and Japan are fully-functioning, extremely wealthy liberal* democracies. So they show that China's way of authoritarianism isn't the only way within that area of the globe. But, we know both of those other countries went through authoritarian stages which were extremely unpleasant: Korea under Park Chung Hee, also Japan in the 1950s/60s when it went through a command economy phase and extremely rapid growth.

                  My hope was that China might have followed a similar path and gradually moved away from authoritarianism. But, with Ji Ping's term limit removed, lots of stories such as the one in the OP centered around an increased reduction in freedoms and individual rights, it actually looks like they are moving in the opposite direction. Which is a great shame.

                  * I say liberal - I don't think they are as far along this road, certainly with respect to LGBQT rights and things of that nature, as many western liberal democracies.

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